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Post by robspace on Aug 8, 2008 18:41:08 GMT 9.5
I can't believe it. The other day there was a message on my door from the property management group saying that there is no longer any flags of any kind to be flown or shown on the outside of our duplexe's. There is about 50 or so units here and you have to be over 50 to live here. No kids and no crime. They won't allow in anybody with any police record. It's nice and quiet but they have crossed the line on this one.
My neighbor lady is nearly eighty and lives alone. She bothers noone and has two small American flags on her porch. She also has a couple of small plaques. One says God Bless The World. This morning she was real upset because the manager told her to get rid of the flags and the plaque! She is calling the local paper tomorro. I talked to others here and they are all real mad at this. One lady talked to a state representive yesterday. I emailed the same man as well as the paper. The owners of this place own alot of properties all over the country and should know better then try to keep Americans from flying Old Glory. Especially with the troops at war and the elections coming up. I have no idea how the law reads on this so if any of you know I'd like to know where we stand. I'm going to call around and try to find out. I looked online and have seen where this has happened before but never saw the final outcome. What are the tenent rights on flying a flag? We do have alot of Russians living here so that may be one reason is that they want to fly their own flags too but so what? This is America and when we can't fly the flag that so many died for we are in a sad and dangerous time. I wrote the property owners to ask why they started this new rule and I said it was like Nazi Germany, being told what you can and can't pay honor and tribute to. If you have been through this or know the law on this I'd like to hear it-thanks
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Post by Chips on Aug 8, 2008 19:51:12 GMT 9.5
I'm not sure about the USA Rob but every citizen in Australia has the right to fly the Australian Flag providing all protocols are observed.
Hope you get them to reverse the decision.
Keep us advised mate!
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Post by clifftimmons on Aug 8, 2008 22:16:03 GMT 9.5
Yes, keep us updated on this Rob. They may have poked a bear they didn't want to poke.
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Post by robspace on Aug 8, 2008 22:42:15 GMT 9.5
I did a little looking and found there is a law that stops any landlord from not allowing their tenents to fly the flag. I didn't write the code but it is on the books. Now, this has been challenged before and the property owners have the right to put in the lease contract that nothing can be attached to the outside of the apartments. There is nothing about this in my lease. They have already had us take down the satellite dishs. But the flags protected unlike the dish, thank God! It has just a little more importance then the tube does.I found a flag site online that members talk about this and other flag related things. I found other people there that have had this happen to them and one case where a WW2 vet was told to take his down. he fought it and they reversed their rule. I think this should happen here. To mess with seniors is a really lowdown thing to do anyway. Alot of my neighbors were in WW2 and Korea and for these idiot property owners are being real fools. I will call the senior citizen group here in town today and ask about a free legal service they have. The owner of this place and all their other properties died not long ago and his son took over. Since then it's been one thing after another. But this one is way over the top!
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Post by annieoakley on Aug 8, 2008 22:42:52 GMT 9.5
This doesn't sound like a smart move on management's part. Good luck and keep us updated.
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Post by robspace on Aug 8, 2008 22:53:40 GMT 9.5
I found this discussion online about this issue. This woman is going through the same thing as me and there is a law in place that protects people from idiot landlords. This is good to know. It's times like this I really miss owning my own home. This is taken from the flag site--------------------------------------------------------------------------------07-23-2007, 04:00 PM JLynn82 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2 Flags at Apartments
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Good Afternoon, I was told by my apartment complex that I have to take down my American flag that is posted outside on our patio. We have made sure that there is a light on it at all times to show the proper respect. Does anyone know if this is right for them to be able to demand this from the residents? I feel like my rights as an American are being violated. I have tried to do some research, but to no avail. Hope you all are having a great day. __________________ Great Sports Talk at GoTeamsGo Sports Forum - NASCAR Forum - College Sports - NFL Forums
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#2 07-23-2007, 05:05 PM american_flag_uk Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: England Posts: 403 Re: Flags at Apartments
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it is your right to display your flag and there IS a law in place after sep 11th that every american has the right to display a flag on their property.
just make sure it is not in a hazardous position ie if outside to make sure it is fastened securely so it cant blow away or blow into electric cables etc
if on a flagpole make sure the end of the flag pole cant catch anybody in the eye or head. if the light is bothereing the housing compamy that is their right to have u turn that off. they cannot stop you displaying the flag if it is being done in a safe and hazard less manner it is your right - pdefend that right and fly your flag proudly!!- if u still experiance problems get in touch with your town/city governers/ mayors or even state governers and have them deal with it cos im positive theyll back you all the way. __________________ Great Sports Talk at GoTeamsGo Sports Forum - NASCAR Forum - College Sports - NFL Forums
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#3 08-01-2007, 05:00 PM CultureGeek Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 52 Re: Flags at Apartments
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Are you permitted to fly your flag by day?
It sounds like it might be a light issue, and if so, you may have to display the flag by day and fold it up at night. If you live in an apartment complex, your light may be shining into a neighbor's bedroom window. Many cities and counties also have ordinances limiting what kind of outdoor lights are permissible at night because of light pollution.
Alternately, it could be a fire hazard issue, in which case the answer might be to move the flag somewhere else (if it's blocking a fire exit), or use another type of light (if the type of light is not approved for use outdoors, or is not covered by your landlord's insurance).
Or it could be that it's blowing over a neighbor's patio or something and you have to get a smaller flag or move it to the other side of your patio.
I don't know what law american_flag_uk is talking about (and I pay a lot of attention to that sort of thing) so I can't speak to how it would apply to a rented property. However, displaying a flag on a property you are renting should, under existing laws, be perfectly allowable--- with some limitations.
You do have a first amendment right to fly the flag but your landlord has a right to impose some regulations on the use of his/her property-- although I am no lawyer and don't know what happens if the restrictions are unreasonable. I think they have to be relatively reasonable but I do not know. If it's a condo, well, homeowners' associations seem to be winning an awful lot of conditional deed cases but once again, I really don't know for sure.
I think that, unless it is causing a problem (something like the examples mentioned above or something I haven't thought of), the flag display itself should constitute quiet enjoyment and be permissible. However, and I cannot stress this enough, look at the terms of your lease (or condo agreement).
My guess is that you can display your flag but you may have to display your flag in a slightly different fashion in order to comply with the apartment complex's rules. __________________ My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
--Carl Schurz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last edited by CultureGeek : 08-01-2007 at 05:03 PM. Reason: because I'm never happy with anything I write
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#4 08-03-2007, 12:33 PM american_flag_uk Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: England Posts: 403 Re: Flags at Apartments
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H.R.42
One Hundred Ninth Congress
of the
United States of America
AT THE SECOND SESSION BegunReceived; read twice and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday, the third day of January, two thousand and six An Act To ensure that the right of an individual to display the flag of the United States on residential property not be abridged. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This Act may be cited as the `Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005'. SEC. 2. DEFINITIONS. For purposes of this Act-- (1) the term `flag of the United States' has the meaning given the term `flag, standard, colors, or ensign' under section 3 of title 4, United States Code; (2) the terms `condominium association' and `cooperative association' have the meanings given such terms under section 604 of Public Law 96-399 (15 U.S.C. 3603); (3) the term `residential real estate management association' has the meaning given such term under section 528 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (26 U.S.C. 528); and (4) the term `member'-- (A) as used with respect to a condominium association, means an owner of a condominium unit (as defined under section 604 of Public Law 96-399 (15 U.S.C. 3603)) within such association; (B) as used with respect to a cooperative association, means a cooperative unit owner (as defined under section 604 of Public Law 96-399 (15 U.S.C. 3603)) within such association; and (C) as used with respect to a residential real estate management association, means an owner of a residential property within a subdivision, development, or similar area subject to any policy or restriction adopted by such association. SEC. 3. RIGHT TO DISPLAY THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES. A condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association may not adopt or enforce any policy, or enter into any agreement, that would restrict or prevent a member of the association from displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association with respect to which such member has a separate ownership interest or a right to exclusive possession or use. SEC. 4. LIMITATIONS. Nothing in this Act shall be considered to permit any display or use that is inconsistent with-- (1) any provision of chapter 1 of title 4, United States Code, or any rule or custom pertaining to the proper display or use of the flag of the United States (as established pursuant to such chapter or any otherwise applicable provision of law); or (2) any reasonable restriction pertaining to the time, place, or manner of displaying the flag of the United States necessary to protect a substantial interest of the condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association. __________________ Great Sports Talk at GoTeamsGo Sports Forum - NASCAR Forum - College Sports - NFL Forums
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#5 08-06-2007, 02:40 PM JLynn82 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2 Re: Flags at Apartments
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Thank you both for the information. We spoke to the leasing office and their reasoning is to keep the outside of the units "uniform". In over 400 units only 3 American flags were flying and now those have been taken down. We are going to try to contact City Hall to see if we can do anything.
It's just so sad because the main flag at the entrance is not treated with the proper respect. They flew it at night without a light on it for about a year, it was really ragged and torn on the edges for a while before they did anything, and now the latest is it is hanging from one loop because it was really windy one night... we called to let them know and they said they would take care of it but it still isn't fixed. Thanks again for the information __________________ Great Sports Talk at GoTeamsGo Sports Forum - NASCAR Forum - College Sports - NFL Forums
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#6 08-06-2007, 03:40 PM american_flag_uk Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: England Posts: 403 Re: Flags at Apartments
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they arent allowed to stop you from displaying the flag. take it higher __________________ Great Sports Talk at GoTeamsGo Sports Forum - NASCAR Forum - College Sports - NFL Forums
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#7 08-06-2007, 04:16 PM CultureGeek Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 52 Re: Flags at Apartments
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Thanks, American_Flag_UK. Yep, that would apply to a condo as well. Based on the info American_Flag_UK has provided, you are probably in the right. What it looks like is you can't display it in front of a fire exit or anything but they can't stop you from displaying it (i.e. they can make you move it if they have a good reason and don't prevent you from putting it up at all) I'm no lawyer but that's what it looks like to me.
Thoughts in no particular order:
Looks like a pretty straightforward case of how far you're willing to take it. Unfortunately, property management companies get away with breaking the law in a lot of different ways because they evict tenants who report them for doing so, and because they have more lawyers.
However, there are legal aid resources in most or all states, and there are probably a lot of well-funded organizations that could be persuaded to take an interest. In this landlord-tenant battle, you can marshall a lot of allies. All kinds of nonprofits from ACORN to the DAR are potential allies, so that could be very helpful. It's such an apple pie issue that you have the potential to get a lot of public sympathy.
Hmm.. I wonder if the media could be of help here. Most local news stations have a consumer issues reporter of some sort and would probably eat this up. Both liberal groups and conservative groups would be likely to take your side here, so you have a lot of options.
It might help to talk privately to the other people who've been forced to take their flags down, and maybe to some other tenants as well(but see next paragraph); if you work together, you might have a stronger position.
Also, try to play your hand as close as possible. I'm no good at that (I am really hopelessly bad at any kind of deception; no future in politics here) so others can give you better advice than I can on that front.
If you're going to fight this, you also have to be absolutely perfect on all other parts of your lease or condo association agreement, and keep records of your being absolutely perfect on them, so you don't give them any excuse to evict you and say it was for a legitimate reason. Now, how much that would help depends on your state's landlord-tenant laws. Some states, they don't need a reason so look into that.
So those are some options. In the mean time, bide your time and keep records. Make a flag issue file. Save copies of everything you send them and save everything they send you.
Hope this helps. __________________ Great Sports Talk at GoTeamsGo Sports Forum - NASCAR Forum - College Sports - NFL Forums
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#8 08-08-2008, 04:47 AM
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Post by clifftimmons on Aug 8, 2008 23:06:01 GMT 9.5
Yup. They poked the bear. Keep after them Rob. You're doing a great service for many who can't.
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Post by nancy1340 on Aug 9, 2008 1:16:57 GMT 9.5
Get'er done Rob.
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Post by wvpeach1963 on Aug 9, 2008 1:37:10 GMT 9.5
Call a meeting of the residents. Get a petition going.
Fight, fight, fight
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Post by Chips on Aug 9, 2008 13:46:05 GMT 9.5
Rob the flag with the lack of light may be part of the flag protocol.
The Australian Flag may be flown at night but protocol insists that it be lit up... flood or spot lights hitting the flag.
Failing that, the flag should be lowered at sunset and raised at dawn.
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Post by nancy1340 on Aug 9, 2008 13:54:19 GMT 9.5
Rob the flag with the lack of light may be part of the flag protocol. The Australian Flag may be flown at night but protocol insists that it be lit up... flood or spot lights hitting the flag. Failing that, the flag should be lowered at sunset and raised at dawn. Chips, sadly here protocol went out the window years ago. Flags are left up day, night, rain or shine until they fall apart. If there were other flags being flown along with Old Glory she was suppose to be the highest.
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Post by Chips on Aug 9, 2008 16:15:51 GMT 9.5
OK. I went and found your flag protocols for you. I fly my flag at home 24 hours a day. What does "properly illuminated" mean? Section 6a: "It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness."
The Flag Code offers no additional guidance on this question. We interpret this to mean that there should be either a light directly upon the flag or that there be sufficient local lighting to make the flag easily visible at night.
If you cannot "properly illuminate" your flag, we recommend that you retire it at sunset, as the Flag Rules specify.
Have the "properly illuminated" rules been relaxed since 9/11 or for energy conservation? No. There has been no revision of the Flag Code and there has been no Presidential Proclamation changing the guidelines for respectful display of the flag at night. Section 6a: "when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness."
There is a section that addresses Rob's problem...... What are the rules for homeowners/condo associations? There is a law protecting your right to fly the US flag.
A condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association may not adopt or enforce any policy, or enter into any agreement, that would restrict or prevent a member of the association from displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association with respect to which such member has a separate ownership interest or a right to exclusive possession or use. Read HR42. In the News:: Homeowner at odds with homeowners association [October 26, 2006] In the News:: National Flag Law Mirrors Community Associations Institute Public Policy [July 24, 2006]
For a complete guide to flying the American Flag (And most others) attend the following URL. www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
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Post by gypho on Aug 12, 2008 22:48:04 GMT 9.5
Great information, we all need to bookmark this... although debate about flying the flag isn't a real debate for me anyway. They can KMA if they think they can take away my flag.
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Post by gypho on Aug 12, 2008 22:48:25 GMT 9.5
P.S........ Rob......update?
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Post by clifftimmons on Aug 12, 2008 23:09:48 GMT 9.5
KMA?
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